Question

yard   QUESTION: Hi,

 I live in Southern Ontario Canada. Recently we had an interlocking stone patio built in our backyard. It's a fairly square yard, with an 8 foot fence around the perimeter. We were going to have a 3 foot garden bed all around the inside perimeter coming out from the fence but we were told by the city that we needed to leave at least one foot of grass or river rock around the fence to allow for drainage. As you can see from the photo, I dug a trench, laid down landscape cloth, then added about 3 inches of river rock. It rained very hard yesterday, and it seemed to direct the water where it should. What I would like to know, not being an expert at landscaping or drainage, was there anything else I should have done or is the cloth and rock enough? Is it o.k. for the rock to be right up against the topsoil like that or should I have a barrier between the soil and the rock? One last question, out earth underneath is mainly clay so there is about a half inch or so of standing water in that trench after rain. Is that acceptable or should I be doing something about that?  Thank you!

ANSWER: Hello,

I do not understand why you placed landscape cloth under the rocks. That will impede drainage.  The fence would have been better placed up on a low concrete,stone or masonry wall for better drainage.  It makes no difference if the rock borders the soil.

I see also that you have a two rail fence. You may be ok with that but in alot of cases the boards on two rail fences warp.
You might consider elevating the fence boards up on a concrete,stone or masonry wall. Or landscape timbers or railroad ties could be used as a low wall. Cut the fence boards at the bottom and install the wall underneath;assuming of course you have the height for that. That would give you more room in your garden area and in my opinion would look better.

To address the standing water in the trench,I would first consider a way to get rid of that trench. Remove the landscape cloth.  Water is probably being trapped in the voids of the rocks. Such standing water will lead to mosquito problems and stagnation if it does not drain or evaporate in a certain period of time. For instance,a rain garden must drain within 24 hours.

The problem with drainage around the fence is that if the ends of the fence boards contact bare soil rot will occur. The boards are not rated for ground contact as the fence posts are.
Otherwise there is nothing particularly special about drainage around a fence in most cases since a fence usually follows the contours of the land. It is not so much a problem of draining away water but of keeping the fence board ends elevated above water. In your pic the fence board ends look as though they are contacting bare ground.

Add organic material to the soil to eliminate the clay problem. To this organic material add a small amount of sand. Good luck. Let me know if I can be of further help.

Mark  Harshman
http://www.harshmandrafting.com

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Mark,

Thanks for the prompt reply!

Just to be clear, I know it's difficult to tell from the picture but the fence boards don't actually touch the ground, or any soil. They stop about two inches above the ground so I think I'm o.k. there. Also thanks for letting me know about the landscaping cloth. It was my neighbor who mentioned laying down the cloth as he says if I didn't then I would get weeds coming up through the rock, which I don't want. Is this true? Also doesn't the cloth help prevent the soil underneath from eroding? It's easy enough to remove the cloth if you think it's a bad idea. Also, the trench isn't deep. I was told to keep the rocks at the same level as the grass in the neighbor's yard.
 So as my garden stands, the topsoil is sitting right on top of the clay subsoil, so can I just add organic material to the topsoil or do I need to dig down and mix it into the clay subsoil?

Thanks again Mark, you're being a big help!

ANSWER: Hello,

Actually the fence boards being 2 inches above the soil still doesnt give them good protection because rain will splash onto them.

The landscape fabric may have some effectiveness,depending on how much space is in between the rocks and the kind of fabric you used. A weed barrier fabric is more effective than a cloth that may have a less dense stitching because weeds can grow through the holes in the fabric. Weed barrier fabric is meant to be used with mulch.

The rocks by themselves will prevent any erosion but on such a flat space no erosion will take place anyway. "Rip rap" (rocks piled on hillsides) is an erosion control measure. The cloth will impede drainage and I see no purpose to having this structure.  What job is it doing?  It just fills with water to overflowing and spills onto your garden.  If you had a true drainage problem there then you would be better served using a french drain or underground drain pipe.

You should work organic matter into the soil to at least 1 foot deep. If the topsoil already in place is a good loam than there would be no point in adding organic matter. You want to improve the clay soil so the plants will grow better and to improve the soils drainage characteristics.

Why would the rocks have to be kept at the level of the grass next door?  Good luck. Let me know if I can be of further help.

Mark  Harshman
http://www.harshmandrafting.com
http://www.liveperson.com/markland

If you have been helped by this advice please consider making a small donation to me to help offset the costs of providing this service. Donations can be made by PayPal.

My email address for PayPal payments is: [email protected]



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Mark,

 Thanks again for your reply.

 I can understand your questioning the rocks being there. I did as well. When I was getting the stone put in, the city came to the house and told me that, by law, I could NOT have the soil go right back to the fence, that I needed at least 1 foot between the garden and the fence for drainage purposes. I was originally going to put boards around the perimeter of the fence and have the soil go all the way back. I asked what I should put there for drainage and he said to either leave it as grass -which I thought would have looked terrible - or put river rock. So I chose the river rock. He also said that the drainage area had to be at the same level as the grass used to be, so I did that. When it rains it actually works o.k. With way that our land is graded, the water flows like a stream around the garden and down the side of our house. Not right against the house, but between the stone walkway and our neighbors house, then onto my front lawn. It seems to work o.k. You're right though, there is some standing water in the rocks afterward that takes awhile to drain away, however I'm not sure what to do about this. If I remove the cloth, then it's for sure weeds will grow through the rocks which will impede the flow of the water, forcing it to overflow into the garden. If I don't, I have standing water. Should I just say to heck with it and take out the rocks all together and have the soil go all the way back to the fence like I originally planned? The only problem we had was when it was just grass back there, that far corner you see in the picture wouldn't drain very well and it would always be really wet back there. So if I remove the rocks what could I do there to make sure that corner will drain?

Again, thanks Mark!

Rob

Answer
QUESTION: Hi,

I live in Southern Ontario Canada. Recently we had an interlocking stone patio built in our backyard. It's a fairly square yard, with an 8 foot fence around the perimeter. We were going to have a 3 foot garden bed all around the inside perimeter coming out from the fence but we were told by the city that we needed to leave at least one foot of grass or river rock around the fence to allow for drainage. As you can see from the photo, I dug a trench, laid down landscape cloth, then added about 3 inches of river rock. It rained very hard yesterday, and it seemed to direct the water where it should. What I would like to know, not being an expert at landscaping or drainage, was there anything else I should have done or is the cloth and rock enough? Is it o.k. for the rock to be right up against the topsoil like that or should I have a barrier between the soil and the rock? One last question, out earth underneath is mainly clay so there is about a half inch or so of standing water in that trench after rain. Is that acceptable or should I be doing something about that?  Thank you!
Image: yard_2

ANSWER: Hello,

I do not understand why you placed landscape cloth under the rocks. That will impede drainage.  The fence would have been better placed up on a low concrete,stone or masonry wall for better drainage.  It makes no difference if the rock borders the soil.

I see also that you have a two rail fence. You may be ok with that but in alot of cases the boards on two rail fences warp.
You might consider elevating the fence boards up on a concrete,stone or masonry wall. Or landscape timbers or railroad ties could be used as a low wall. Cut the fence boards at the bottom and install the wall underneath;assuming of course you have the height for that. That would give you more room in your garden area and in my opinion would look better.

To address the standing water in the trench,I would first consider a way to get rid of that trench. Remove the landscape cloth.  Water is probably being trapped in the voids of the rocks. Such standing water will lead to mosquito problems and stagnation if it does not drain or evaporate in a certain period of time. For instance,a rain garden must drain within 24 hours.

The problem with drainage around the fence is that if the ends of the fence boards contact bare soil rot will occur. The boards are not rated for ground contact as the fence posts are.
Otherwise there is nothing particularly special about drainage around a fence in most cases since a fence usually follows the contours of the land. It is not so much a problem of draining away water but of keeping the fence board ends elevated above water. In your pic the fence board ends look as though they are contacting bare ground.

Add organic material to the soil to eliminate the clay problem. To this organic material add a small amount of sand. Good luck. Let me know if I can be of further help.

Mark  Harshman
http://www.mahdrafting.com
Email: [email protected]

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/724-104627/Landscaping-Design/Mark.htm







---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Mark,

Thanks for the prompt reply!

Just to be clear, I know it's difficult to tell from the picture but the fence boards don't actually touch the ground, or any soil. They stop about two inches above the ground so I think I'm o.k. there. Also thanks for letting me know about the landscaping cloth. It was my neighbor who mentioned laying down the cloth as he says if I didn't then I would get weeds coming up through the rock, which I don't want. Is this true? Also doesn't the cloth help prevent the soil underneath from eroding? It's easy enough to remove the cloth if you think it's a bad idea. Also, the trench isn't deep. I was told to keep the rocks at the same level as the grass in the neighbor's yard.
So as my garden stands, the topsoil is sitting right on top of the clay subsoil, so can I just add organic material to the topsoil or do I need to dig down and mix it into the clay subsoil?

Thanks again Mark, you're being a big help!

ANSWER: Hello,

Actually the fence boards being 2 inches above the soil still doesnt give them good protection because rain will splash onto them.

The landscape fabric may have some effectiveness,depending on how much space is in between the rocks and the kind of fabric you used. A weed barrier fabric is more effective than a cloth that may have a less dense stitching because weeds can grow through the holes in the fabric. Weed barrier fabric is meant to be used with mulch.

The rocks by themselves will prevent any erosion but on such a flat space no erosion will take place anyway. "Rip rap" (rocks piled on hillsides) is an erosion control measure. The cloth will impede drainage and I see no purpose to having this structure.  What job is it doing?  It just fills with water to overflowing and spills onto your garden.  If you had a true drainage problem there then you would be better served using a french drain or underground drain pipe.

You should work organic matter into the soil to at least 1 foot deep. If the topsoil already in place is a good loam than there would be no point in adding organic matter. You want to improve the clay soil so the plants will grow better and to improve the soils drainage characteristics.

Why would the rocks have to be kept at the level of the grass next door?  Good luck. Let me know if I can be of further help.

Mark  Harshman
http://www.mahdrafting.com
Email: [email protected]

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/724-104627/Landscaping-Design/Mark.htm



If you have been helped by this advice please consider making a small donation to me to help offset the costs of providing this service. Donations can be made by PayPal.




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Mark,

Thanks again for your reply.

I can understand your questioning the rocks being there. I did as well. When I was getting the stone put in, the city came to the house and told me that, by law, I could NOT have the soil go right back to the fence, that I needed at least 1 foot between the garden and the fence for drainage purposes. I was originally going to put boards around the perimeter of the fence and have the soil go all the way back. I asked what I should put there for drainage and he said to either leave it as grass -which I thought would have looked terrible - or put river rock. So I chose the river rock. He also said that the drainage area had to be at the same level as the grass used to be, so I did that. When it rains it actually works o.k. With way that our land is graded, the water flows like a stream around the garden and down the side of our house. Not right against the house, but between the stone walkway and our neighbors house, then onto my front lawn. It seems to work o.k. You're right though, there is some standing water in the rocks afterward that takes awhile to drain away, however I'm not sure what to do about this. If I remove the cloth, then it's for sure weeds will grow through the rocks which will impede the flow of the water, forcing it to overflow into the garden. If I don't, I have standing water. Should I just say to heck with it and take out the rocks all together and have the soil go all the way back to the fence like I originally planned? The only problem we had was when it was just grass back there, that far corner you see in the picture wouldn't drain very well and it would always be really wet back there. So if I remove the rocks what could I do there to make sure that corner will drain?

Again, thanks Mark!

Rob